Why Forrest Got The Nod Saturday
By Michael Woods August 7th, 2006Trying to make sense of the verdict at the MSG Theater
Here’s the reason Ike Quartey didn’t get the nod from the judges at the Madison Square Garden Small Room on Saturday evening.
818.
Vernon Forrest threw 818 punches, give or take a few dozen, as punchstat numbers are not an exact science…
Quartey tossed 481, plus or minus a few dozen…
That’s a severely wide disparity there, too wide for comfort for Quartey. He didn’t knock Forrest down, and nobody got noticeably woozy or rubber-legged from a punch, though Quartey did resort to a headlock in the third when Forrest phased him…
It was a tight, tight fight, and none to easy to score.
From the sofa zone in Brooklyn, away from the partisan boisterousness at MSG, it seemed quite plausible that Forrest won, or Quartey won, or for the jdges to see a draw.
Even with the point deduction for Forrests’ crotch hunting blow in the ninth, mind you…
Robbery?
Hallucinating judges?
Nah…
Forrest, with his output edge, told the judges he wanted it more. He was busier. Was he more effective? That’s debatable…
But I say we save the robbery charges and demands for mandatory eyeglasses for judges Lathan, Weisfeld and Paolillo for a more appropriate time and place.
I’ve always liked Lathan’s cards, and can’t recall ever being insulted by a Weisfeld or Paolllio tabulation…
In the eyes of the three beholders, Vernon Forrest beat Ike Quartey on Saturday night. The most obvious recourse here is to sign on for a rematch, and next time, if I were each fighter, I’d aim for a more conclusive finale, and render the judges moot…
August 7th, 2006 at 11:24 am
People are screaming bloody murder but IMO the decision was fair. Sure, it was a close fight but this isn’t even close to being controversial. I blame this controversy on two big reasons: 1. Pro-Quartey crowd. Sure it was in New York but the pro African Crowd was clearly evident. Forrest doesn’t have a fan base in NY. 2. Harold Lederman’s and HBO’s commentary. These guys should be ashamed. As if Forrest was pulling a Smoke Gainer vs JMM. Why they jumped on the Quartey band wagon is beyond me. All the rounds were close.
Here are robberies that truly left me scratching my head
Lennox vs Holyfield 1
Pernell vs Chavez
August 7th, 2006 at 11:41 am
“I’ve always liked Lathan’s cards…”
Never thought I’d hear anybody say that. Wasn’t Lathan one of the judges who robbed Lennox Lewis at the garden against Holyfield?
August 7th, 2006 at 12:10 pm
I scored the fight myself and had Quartey won 98-97 over Forrest. Quartey was more into the fight than Forrest was, although the rounds were close. I still say Quartey was the better man, and there should be a re-match.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:25 pm
Eddie, that was Eugenia Williams. Melvina has actually greatly improved over the years in scoring a fight. The last questionable card I recall of hers was when she somehow had Byrd beating Golota in their April 2004 fight.
MadMan - 98-97? You sure that’s what your card read? LOL… that’s like 2 rounds apiece and six rounds even, minus the Forrest point deduction in the 9th.
I had it 95-94, Ike, but didn’t believe it to be a robbery. Michael makes a good point in the blog recap - Vernon was throwing upwards of 80 punches a round, Ike throwing less than 50, My prediction going in was that Ike’s arrogance would get the best of him in this fight, and this was what I had in mind. True he landed more, but the same people complaining about this verdict are the same that believe Jermain Taylor won both fights against Hopkins. Go figure.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:42 pm
ok heres the deal. Some thigns are disputable when is comes to boxing. hey damn near all thing are. So lets not talk about who won the fight, lets talk about how the fight went. From the getgo Ike took control of the fight and dictated pace throughout. Vernon tried to counter but he was mostly off balance or moving backwards. he could not gain leverage on hardly any punches and his jab was pretty much non existant. Ike made Vernon very uncomfortable and the punch totals dont lie. Ike through less than half the punches Forest did, and still considerably outlanded him. When you think of who landed the more of the impressive blows, who dictated the pace, who do you think of. I mean if they scored the fight like this considering that Forest had a point taken away, then how would the judges have had it if he hadnt have been penalized. I’m not saying it was a robbery, but just like the Winky/Jermain fight, it really makes me wonder what the hell the judges are looking at sometimes. I know its a hard job but i mean come on. lol. I think sometimes fighters get credit just because of there name. Jermain looked good in the fight with Winky. but the hard truth is, he was schooled and he really didnt know what to do with Wright. he through alot of hard punchs, but Winky blocked nearly all of them. and last night Forest looked like a shell of his former self. Ike on the other hand, looked very good, and it showed. maybe the were judging effort and not affectiveness lol
August 7th, 2006 at 3:36 pm
Since everyone is so enfatuated with punch stats, I suggest we take a CompuBox, feed in some special softward to make it an Artificial Intelligence, and let the CompuBox box score the fight. Over the long run, AI will probably do as well as most judges, which is to say, not very well at all.
Then again, watch any NFL or NBA guy, you find yourself constantly ripping the refs. Truth is, when a game or bout is fast, it is very hard to see with the same accuracy you get at home with slow motion replay.
Live with it. And if you are a fighter, know that if the fight feels close around round 8, show your heart and pump up the volume on the attack, which neither Ike nor Vernon did. Three big matches, Jermain-Winky, Rahman-Toney and now this one. All three should have been draws, as in nobody did enough to deserve to win. Amen God Bless Don King, at least when he has his own judges, we are guaranteed of the result before hand, so let the buyer beware.
August 7th, 2006 at 3:44 pm
Just one word: ROBBED!
August 7th, 2006 at 3:48 pm
It is true that Forrest threw a lot more punches than Quartey, but punches don’t score if they don’t land. Quartey landed more punches and he landed harder punches. Ike deserved the decision.
August 7th, 2006 at 4:16 pm
I was rooting for Quartey, but I scored rounds and at the end of the night, I had Vernon ahead as well. It was close. A lot of rounds were close. I was hoping the decision would be a draw (cant remember the last time I wanted a draw either).
Quartey was obviously more aggressive, but I’d argue that Vernon was more effective. Quartey’s pressure never amounted to anything, he never really properly got off, just chased, while Forrest backpedaled, set himself and fired off uppercuts that connected.
It amazes me that out of all the bogus robberies that happen in boxing, THIS is the one that people are finally waking up on? This was a close, close fight, regardless of what Jim Lampley, Lederman and Merchant want you to think. I love that trio, and I wanted Quartey to win, but their reactions and commentary during the post-fight (Lampley considering it possible retribution against US loss against Ghana in World Cup???) were unprofessional albeit maybe entertaining in an eminem/paris hilton “what did he just say” sort of way.
Blech. This was a close fight. Replay it and score it. Just don’t be blinded by HBO’s henchmen telling you that you are watching a heist, because if you did your homework, it simply wasn’t.
August 7th, 2006 at 6:27 pm
many of those punches missed. do those count? many of those punches were harmlessly blocked by ike’s gloves. do those count? the compubox punch count is just a straw folks are grasping for to explain the inexplicable decision.
it can’t even be explained by the interests of the promoter or of the network.
the crowd was neither partisan nor boisterous. for the most part, the 3000 or so sat on their hands; they were much louder during the prelims that featured local fighters. there were maybe 50 vocal ike supporters; at the end of the 10th they were screaming because their guy had clearly won it. (and how many times are judges said to have been influenced by a noisy crowd? you can’t have that point both ways).
the crowd as a whole made very little noise until after the decision was announced. and the chant did not originate from the section where the ghanaian flags were flying.
a lot of rounds were close. a lot were not. forrest visibly slowed and showed his age in the middle rounds, and was completely outboxed in a clear majority of rounds. i could live with a close tally in favor of ike (i had it a wide victory). but a draw would have been just wrong. the forrest win was just wrong.
August 8th, 2006 at 12:06 am
Quartey got screwed. It kills me how a good guy like Ike continues to get the short end of the stick. This guy is one of the great welterweight champs of our era along with tito, oscar and sweetpea. The amount of restraint and class quartey dislays in both of his debatable losses (this one and oscar) is admirable. Regaedless of the decision, we all know who won and all realize that this guy is a great fighter who really when focused and on his game never clearly lost a fight. The decision wont matter when he’s inducted into the hall of fame, and forrest will be on the outside looking in.
August 8th, 2006 at 3:11 am
Yo net time u watcha afight try watching it with your eyes open. FOrrest had nothing he ran all night and was hunted by IKE . u dont win a fight on one uppercut ifu dont ko the other fighter. Ike stalked him all night and had the nore significent and harder blows. Forrest was scared that Ike would KO him. so he ran . the punch numbers you described in the article is not even close to what youclaimed forrest threw vs Ikes . dude get real IKE won and thats it. the kid was robbed. thats why people are now switching to UFC because of so many set ups in boxing and bad judges. I want to know what qualifies these people to judge a professional boxing match. were they former boxers, trainers, have they spend any time in a gym. did they ever hit a heavy bag . So ike paid for the set up. and by the way HBO boxing is a suspect as far as fixing fights.
August 8th, 2006 at 3:15 am
yo by the way for the record. WINKEY blinked and got ROBBED as well yet again on HBO by a HDO fighter so what ya say bout that. SUSPECT
August 8th, 2006 at 3:18 am
ROckie got robbed on HBO too when he fought BARRERA another HBO fighter hmmmmmmmmmmmm go figure.here is how u see afix. listen to the commentators during the fight. if the fight is fixed. they will not call the shots of the guy that is supposed to loose. they will highlight the other fighter. its all about the HBO fighters. once again look at how wink got robbed against jughead Taylor. kid cant fight his way out a wert paper bag.
August 8th, 2006 at 10:57 am
There’s no doubt that it was a close fight, but considering the confident aggression, effective solid shots, ring generalship, and really low blow point deduction, I find it unusually curious that 3 judges had THOSE scores.
Especially if you take into account the fear in Vernon’s eyes and the punishment that his face exhibited. I often disagree with the HBO comentators, but I would have to say, they called this one right. Ike Quartey made a long journey to get used and disrespected by three ignorant, blind, or characterless dream assasins. My question is, does anyone know a boxing link that will quickly and easily reveal a judges fight scoring history? If so I would really appreciate not having to spend countless hours studying the tendencies of each one myself. Also, am I the only one who believes that Floyd Prettyboy Mayweather is the second coming of Roy Jones Jr. in the way that, both are lightening quick, have mad skills, but never exhibit heart or balls and seem perfectly content to select the matches that will offer them the most money with the least amount of risk? I bet a well trained Kostya Tszue could negate Floyds’ speed and leave him as he did Zab Juda, stunned, perplexed, and exposed. It’s to bad we’ll never find out.
August 8th, 2006 at 1:54 pm
you know i gotta respond to what Alexis said a few comments up. I started boxing at the age of five and i understand what it means to know you earned the win and didnt get it. ok, rahman/toney was a draw. i agree, the fight was a snooze. but Wright/Taylor and Quartey/Forest were not draws. If we started getting into who we think did enough to win and who deserves it more, then we loose what it all about. The judges should score the fight for who won and thats it. Its about who wants it but its also about who is more affective also. Its not figure skating for christ sake. if you cant see that Ike clearly won that fight then something is wrong with what youre looking at. And with Winky and Jermaine. well, i think he would have lost that fight if he was just some other guy and not Jermaine taylor. I mean hes a good fighter but Judges just love him for some reason. it was evident when he won the first of his bouts with B-Hop. and we all know that there was one judge who had Jermaine winning the last round. Now i cant find one person that saw that fight and remember Taylor winning a round after 8. and that would have made it a draw. That was a draw(Hopkins/Taylor I) not quartey Forest. but hey thats boxing and its just and opinion……..
August 8th, 2006 at 5:29 pm
It’s funny, the same people that swear that B-HOP won against JT are the same who are coming out of the wood works for this decision. It wasn’t a robbery- just a matter of what style you liked better.
My opinion, it should been a draw because there wasn’t one clear cut winner.
August 8th, 2006 at 7:10 pm
THAT EXACTLY WHAT IM SAYING, WHAT ANY ONE “LIKED” OR “DISLIKED” SHOULD NOT BE THE RULE OF THUMB WE ARE USING TO JUDGE A FIGHT. THATS BOXING’S PROBLEM NOW CHRISTIAN. ITS NOT ABOUT WHAT YOU OR I, OR ANYBODY LIKED. iTS SHOULD BE ABOUT WHO WAS THE DICTATOR AND WHO WAS MORE AFFECTIVE IN IMPOSING HIS WILL ON THE FIGHT
August 11th, 2006 at 2:55 pm
I actually scored an 11 point victory for Quartey. I was shocked as Lederman was calling some rounds for Forrest. I’ve never seen someone blatantly miss so many punches, hitting nothing but air. Quartey was accurate, efficient, confident, and powerful. Worst judging I’ve ever witnessed.